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	<title>Comments on: Un-SHACK-led / A Review of THE SHACK</title>
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	<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/</link>
	<description>Finding an abundance of joy in generously sharing my extreme poverty.</description>
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		<title>By: responsivereiding</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[responsivereiding]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Phil - I agree with most of what you said. There really is this underlying thread of failure to see man as truly sinful and rebellious, and needing true deliverance from sin, guilt and opposition to God. We are not Buddhists just needing to awake to our goddness.  We are cosmic criminals, needing to own our sin and at the same time see the incomparable mercy and grace of God in Christ. That God loves us is essential - but by itself it does not save. Apart from faith and repentance, we remain lost.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Phil &#8211; I agree with most of what you said. There really is this underlying thread of failure to see man as truly sinful and rebellious, and needing true deliverance from sin, guilt and opposition to God. We are not Buddhists just needing to awake to our goddness.  We are cosmic criminals, needing to own our sin and at the same time see the incomparable mercy and grace of God in Christ. That God loves us is essential &#8211; but by itself it does not save. Apart from faith and repentance, we remain lost.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not meaning to pile up a backlash of comments here, Reid...but having listened to some interviews/read some people&#039;s favourable  comments etc, there are some things that bother me concerning the truth wrt their theology. I haven&#039;t read the book, as I say...but these things come to mind. It probably overlaps with what you&#039;ve said already.

1) The genre of theological fiction. I don&#039;t like the idea of putting words in God&#039;s mouth/presenting images that he hasn&#039;t given us. Jesus spoke the truth authoritatively (being qualified to do so) with a veiling in parables etc according to his redemptive-historical purposes. But post-Pentecost, we don&#039;t see the truth set forth other than plainly to the sight of all men. It&#039;s not a subjective &quot;discovery journey&quot;, even though it needs to be subjectively ingested. At the least, such mixes in human conjecture with the plain truth. It muddies the waters.

2) Too many people are far too subjective and will eat what they&#039;re fed if it hits the spot on the moment. That doesn&#039;t necessarily mean it&#039;s of God. This genre of writing just feeds that.

3) Theologically speaking, it would seem that the gospel is not primarily &quot;how does a holy God receive sinners?&quot; but more a therapeutic gospel. &quot;How do we learn to live loved?&quot;. God&#039;s grace is discussed in a way that blurs the black and white distinctions between saved and unsaved, saint and sinner, justified and unjustified. This objectivity, that must be the basis for &quot;living loved&quot;, seems to be lost. Christ did come to give us life in abundance, but it is always set within the context of a present (and clear) &quot;completeness in Christ&quot;. Here, I get the feel that justification is overlaid by sanctification, and when you do that, you will also lose clarity on the fundamental realities of the new birth. We need the knowledge of all those things to genuinely live by faith.  And that knowledge must start with a cognitive, mental grasp, which will then grow in the ul;timately defining aspect of &quot;faith&quot; - the trust aspect. Thus we increasingly live out the indwelling Christ&#039;s life.

4) I mentioned above the &quot;Christus Victor&quot; view of the atonement. I&#039;m not saying the author et al necessarily subscribe entirely - but from what I&#039;ve seen and understand, while there are perhaps some good emphases (assuming the &quot;ransom theory&quot; is not saying that God made a payment to Satan) it seems to lose man&#039;s complicity in the affair of the fall - in the sense that it says God&#039;s justice is purely about righting the wrong of humanity under slavery to Satan, not relationally functioning as it was intended...and not also issuing in judgement against man. That is, a penal satisfaction of sorts, is not fundamental to man&#039;s reconciliation. Necessarily, then, it is likely in this scheme  that justification becomes more subjective, and God&#039;s holiness and wrath must be played off against his love and grace. Not that there isn&#039;t a sense in which mercy rejoices against judgment. (This verse in James, for one, seems to make clear that God&#039;s justice on account of his holiness coming into contact with sin is not wholly inclined - apart from the cross - &quot;for man&quot;.) But that it requires a satisfaction FROM man, so that God is positively just in justifying whoever believes - a satisifaction that God received from Christ on man&#039;s behalf. Again, a satisfaction that is not ours in personal possession until we receive it as sinners in need of it. 

5) This means that we don&#039;t fall into the trap of setting God&#039;s holiness and love as intrinsically against each other, as if he were divided. For our healing (which itself is particularly regarded as of the moment of new birth/justification in the NT, rather than continual), we need to know that his holiness and justice are FOR US in Christ. I need to embrace those to rightly discern and appreciate his love, mercy and grace ACTUALLY poured out on me...the Old Covenant interaction between God and Israel evidences that the problem of sin is more than just us wrongly relating to God on law terms when he is a God of grace...it is that we can&#039;t relate to him on the free grace terms he desires and always intended UNTIL his holiness (and thus his justice) is satisified in our favour. A favour we partake of when we enter into Christ&#039;s rest/Lordship. 

Well, just some (perhaps repetitive)  thoughts. Paul Young himself sounds like a really genuine person, and I don&#039;t want to misrepresent him, but I wanted to mention these things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not meaning to pile up a backlash of comments here, Reid&#8230;but having listened to some interviews/read some people&#8217;s favourable  comments etc, there are some things that bother me concerning the truth wrt their theology. I haven&#8217;t read the book, as I say&#8230;but these things come to mind. It probably overlaps with what you&#8217;ve said already.</p>
<p>1) The genre of theological fiction. I don&#8217;t like the idea of putting words in God&#8217;s mouth/presenting images that he hasn&#8217;t given us. Jesus spoke the truth authoritatively (being qualified to do so) with a veiling in parables etc according to his redemptive-historical purposes. But post-Pentecost, we don&#8217;t see the truth set forth other than plainly to the sight of all men. It&#8217;s not a subjective &#8220;discovery journey&#8221;, even though it needs to be subjectively ingested. At the least, such mixes in human conjecture with the plain truth. It muddies the waters.</p>
<p>2) Too many people are far too subjective and will eat what they&#8217;re fed if it hits the spot on the moment. That doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean it&#8217;s of God. This genre of writing just feeds that.</p>
<p>3) Theologically speaking, it would seem that the gospel is not primarily &#8220;how does a holy God receive sinners?&#8221; but more a therapeutic gospel. &#8220;How do we learn to live loved?&#8221;. God&#8217;s grace is discussed in a way that blurs the black and white distinctions between saved and unsaved, saint and sinner, justified and unjustified. This objectivity, that must be the basis for &#8220;living loved&#8221;, seems to be lost. Christ did come to give us life in abundance, but it is always set within the context of a present (and clear) &#8220;completeness in Christ&#8221;. Here, I get the feel that justification is overlaid by sanctification, and when you do that, you will also lose clarity on the fundamental realities of the new birth. We need the knowledge of all those things to genuinely live by faith.  And that knowledge must start with a cognitive, mental grasp, which will then grow in the ul;timately defining aspect of &#8220;faith&#8221; &#8211; the trust aspect. Thus we increasingly live out the indwelling Christ&#8217;s life.</p>
<p>4) I mentioned above the &#8220;Christus Victor&#8221; view of the atonement. I&#8217;m not saying the author et al necessarily subscribe entirely &#8211; but from what I&#8217;ve seen and understand, while there are perhaps some good emphases (assuming the &#8220;ransom theory&#8221; is not saying that God made a payment to Satan) it seems to lose man&#8217;s complicity in the affair of the fall &#8211; in the sense that it says God&#8217;s justice is purely about righting the wrong of humanity under slavery to Satan, not relationally functioning as it was intended&#8230;and not also issuing in judgement against man. That is, a penal satisfaction of sorts, is not fundamental to man&#8217;s reconciliation. Necessarily, then, it is likely in this scheme  that justification becomes more subjective, and God&#8217;s holiness and wrath must be played off against his love and grace. Not that there isn&#8217;t a sense in which mercy rejoices against judgment. (This verse in James, for one, seems to make clear that God&#8217;s justice on account of his holiness coming into contact with sin is not wholly inclined &#8211; apart from the cross &#8211; &#8220;for man&#8221;.) But that it requires a satisfaction FROM man, so that God is positively just in justifying whoever believes &#8211; a satisifaction that God received from Christ on man&#8217;s behalf. Again, a satisfaction that is not ours in personal possession until we receive it as sinners in need of it. </p>
<p>5) This means that we don&#8217;t fall into the trap of setting God&#8217;s holiness and love as intrinsically against each other, as if he were divided. For our healing (which itself is particularly regarded as of the moment of new birth/justification in the NT, rather than continual), we need to know that his holiness and justice are FOR US in Christ. I need to embrace those to rightly discern and appreciate his love, mercy and grace ACTUALLY poured out on me&#8230;the Old Covenant interaction between God and Israel evidences that the problem of sin is more than just us wrongly relating to God on law terms when he is a God of grace&#8230;it is that we can&#8217;t relate to him on the free grace terms he desires and always intended UNTIL his holiness (and thus his justice) is satisified in our favour. A favour we partake of when we enter into Christ&#8217;s rest/Lordship. </p>
<p>Well, just some (perhaps repetitive)  thoughts. Paul Young himself sounds like a really genuine person, and I don&#8217;t want to misrepresent him, but I wanted to mention these things.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2121</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reid, what do you know about the &quot;Christus Victor&quot; view of the atonement? I gather from one source that it was the dominant view up until Anselm in about the 11th century.   -Phil]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reid, what do you know about the &#8220;Christus Victor&#8221; view of the atonement? I gather from one source that it was the dominant view up until Anselm in about the 11th century.   -Phil</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reid,from some comments connected with those I was referring to in comment 4 above,I think the related view of the atonement (which perhaps would be the one in the shack?)is known as &#039;Christus Victor&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reid,from some comments connected with those I was referring to in comment 4 above,I think the related view of the atonement (which perhaps would be the one in the shack?)is known as &#8216;Christus Victor&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2115</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2115</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with what you&#039;ve said here,but picking up on Rom9,i once read John MacArthur saying that that was a retrospective statement concerning Esau as one who had become finally identified by his sin before God-yes God loved him,but not in the special electing sense that imputed righteousness to him. He was getting at the eternal finality of the situation,rather than here on earth.That&#039;s the part I was considering-I wasn&#039;t saying God doesn&#039;t love everyone here. I hadn&#039;t considered his love continuing,
tho]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what you&#8217;ve said here,but picking up on Rom9,i once read John MacArthur saying that that was a retrospective statement concerning Esau as one who had become finally identified by his sin before God-yes God loved him,but not in the special electing sense that imputed righteousness to him. He was getting at the eternal finality of the situation,rather than here on earth.That&#8217;s the part I was considering-I wasn&#8217;t saying God doesn&#8217;t love everyone here. I hadn&#8217;t considered his love continuing,<br />
tho</p>
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		<title>By: Reid</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2114</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To your last question, I will answer a cautious yes. We do not need to make God&#039;s love and hatred in every way antithetical. When we read &quot;Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated&quot; - we have to remember that God greatly blessed Esau. He was not permitted to have the inheritance of the firstborn, but he was not utterly cast off either. The same with Isaac and Ishmael. When Abraham pleads that God would make Ishmael the heir, God says no, but then reveals he is still going to make great nations come from him. We make God&#039;s hatred like our fallen hatred - to be virulent and separate from love. All of god&#039;s attributes must be expressed in harmony. This does not indicate any lessening of His judgments, but as He states in Lamentations - He does not afflict willingly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To your last question, I will answer a cautious yes. We do not need to make God&#8217;s love and hatred in every way antithetical. When we read &#8220;Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated&#8221; &#8211; we have to remember that God greatly blessed Esau. He was not permitted to have the inheritance of the firstborn, but he was not utterly cast off either. The same with Isaac and Ishmael. When Abraham pleads that God would make Ishmael the heir, God says no, but then reveals he is still going to make great nations come from him. We make God&#8217;s hatred like our fallen hatred &#8211; to be virulent and separate from love. All of god&#8217;s attributes must be expressed in harmony. This does not indicate any lessening of His judgments, but as He states in Lamentations &#8211; He does not afflict willingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One question though-do we then understand God&#039;s hate(in its ultimate sense as respects the finality of the lost state of individuals in hell)as a withholding of the sensible expression of his love?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One question though-do we then understand God&#8217;s hate(in its ultimate sense as respects the finality of the lost state of individuals in hell)as a withholding of the sensible expression of his love?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That was helpful,somewhat new to me,concerning those in hell still loved but unable to experience that. You make much sense here...on a totally different note,talking sense,I just watched Usain Bolt break Michael Johnson&#039;s 200m wr...outstanding.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was helpful,somewhat new to me,concerning those in hell still loved but unable to experience that. You make much sense here&#8230;on a totally different note,talking sense,I just watched Usain Bolt break Michael Johnson&#8217;s 200m wr&#8230;outstanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Reid</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my meager understanding, God makes His presence known in a number of ways. In the OT, one was a representation of His presence, through external means like the pillar of cloud/fire which attended the Israelites. The blessing the Priests were to give the people is &quot;the Lord make His face to shine upon you&quot; - to have some sensible experience of God&#039;s delight in them and favor being near them. I would think this is what Christ experienced the loss of - pictured too in the departing glory of the Lord in Ezekiel&#039;s visions. While Samson for instance had grown so insensible in his sin, he did not even notice when the presence of the Lord had left Him. Christ, apart from any sin, would have experienced that presence as greatly as a human could - in the &quot;likeness&quot; of our fallen condition. Not that there is any change in God&#039;s actual love (I do not believe the Scripture requires that we assume those in Hell aren&#039;t loved at all) - but there is the loss of being able to enjoy, experience, drink in that love and presence. After all, the doctrine of God&#039;s omnipresence alone militates against God&#039;s not actually being there - but the subjective knowledge and experience of it is what changes. Now, this is speculative on my part (though I think constructed from Biblical data) but I wouldn&#039;t want to build any doctrine on it. So, I do not think the Son was any less loved for an instant. Nevertheless, He would have subjectively experienced what the penalty for sin in terms of separation from God is like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my meager understanding, God makes His presence known in a number of ways. In the OT, one was a representation of His presence, through external means like the pillar of cloud/fire which attended the Israelites. The blessing the Priests were to give the people is &#8220;the Lord make His face to shine upon you&#8221; &#8211; to have some sensible experience of God&#8217;s delight in them and favor being near them. I would think this is what Christ experienced the loss of &#8211; pictured too in the departing glory of the Lord in Ezekiel&#8217;s visions. While Samson for instance had grown so insensible in his sin, he did not even notice when the presence of the Lord had left Him. Christ, apart from any sin, would have experienced that presence as greatly as a human could &#8211; in the &#8220;likeness&#8221; of our fallen condition. Not that there is any change in God&#8217;s actual love (I do not believe the Scripture requires that we assume those in Hell aren&#8217;t loved at all) &#8211; but there is the loss of being able to enjoy, experience, drink in that love and presence. After all, the doctrine of God&#8217;s omnipresence alone militates against God&#8217;s not actually being there &#8211; but the subjective knowledge and experience of it is what changes. Now, this is speculative on my part (though I think constructed from Biblical data) but I wouldn&#8217;t want to build any doctrine on it. So, I do not think the Son was any less loved for an instant. Nevertheless, He would have subjectively experienced what the penalty for sin in terms of separation from God is like.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://responsivereiding.com/2008/08/06/un-shack-led-a-review-of-the-shack/#comment-2110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://responsivereiding.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-2110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just want to better understand what that separation entailed and how it satisfactorily achieved what it did. I can see that you are right re the Father&#039;s unchanging love for the Son-including his humanity-but the actual bestowal(or not)of that is somewhat different. The ultimate death-consequence of sin being the irreversible separation of hell,man there is no longer an object of God&#039;s love. Christ suffered satisfactorily concerning those people,so there must be some qualitative equivalence somehow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to better understand what that separation entailed and how it satisfactorily achieved what it did. I can see that you are right re the Father&#8217;s unchanging love for the Son-including his humanity-but the actual bestowal(or not)of that is somewhat different. The ultimate death-consequence of sin being the irreversible separation of hell,man there is no longer an object of God&#8217;s love. Christ suffered satisfactorily concerning those people,so there must be some qualitative equivalence somehow.</p>
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